From: Bryan Koschmann - GKT (no email)
Date: Fri Aug 01 2003 - 17:33:30 EDT
> I agree -- complaints alone aren't helpful to anyone. (do note that a
> complaint is different from constructive criticism or a suggestion)
I can agree with this. Sometimes though a suggestion starts off as a
complaint.
> No. (that is, you can get help even without coding a single line of
> postfix)
Just referring to his previous comment; which seem to come from a very
elitist point of view.
> There are also many ways to contribute without being a programmer.
But wouldn't it be far easier to contribute if you have it setup and
running? And, if you are having trouble getting it setup and running, then
get told to go read something that you've already read, complain, and get
told stop bitching and contribute, well, seems like it is catch-22. To me,
you contribute once it's working for you; adding to the help that was
given to you- contributing and returning the help done for yourself.
> Once you figure out what you didn't get at first, write it up so that
> others can read it and possibly avoid the difficulties you went
> through figuring it out.
Once I get the thing going I most likely will :)
> Not every reply is sarcastic or unhelpful. I've certainly learned a
> lot by reading this list. As for following a maililng list, I find it
> beneficial to observe who the most knowledgeable (and/or helpful)
> people are and pay closest attention to their comments. This is
> especially beneficial when the volume of information is too large to
> digest it all.
My mistake, I should have worded it more towards "the majority of replies
to such questions".
I do in fact follow them this way, and the wealth of knowledge here is
astounding. However, the full scope of "help" seems to only begin with
advanced questions. The basic questions get passed over quite often, again
with the majority seeming to be sarcastic.
> I think this particular example relates to the intended audience and
> type of the documentation. Wietse's manpages are reference-style
> intended for people familiar (and content) with putting the pieces
> together themself. Tips like "start simple, then build on that
> foundation" belong not in reference pages but in tutorial-style books
> or howtos.
I don't consider it a tip. I was thinking more along the lines of:
"When configuring Postfix for MySQL, use the virtual maps in the manpage,
replacing each with the proper MySQL syntax, as shown in this example"
That one line would have saved me a lot of pain and frustration. If by
chance I missed it, I would be happy to know where.
> I've only seen a couple small samples of a sendmail config file, and I
> must say it looks a _lot_ like line noise. Even before I fully
> understood postfix I could at least make some sense out of the
> configuration directives and have an idea where to find the details
> documented.
Yeah, it may be line noise, but to me all that I read was more specific in
saying "this line does this". Maybe I am having more of a difficult time
because I am used to sendmail?
> Assuming no blatant errors in those setups, they're all right. The
> difference a combination of the author's style and the goal he is
> trying to achieve and the value he places on various tradeoffs.
This is also what makes it more confusing, since there are really no
references to these setups in the postfix docs.
> This is, at least in part, because there isn't a One Right Way that
> you must follow or else. MySQL is, as far as postfix is concerned,
> _just another map_ and can be used just like any other map. Instead
> of describing mysql only and then doing the same thing all over again
> for hash, dbm, postgres, etc., the docs describe how a map works.
> Then the mysql docs are much shorter because you already know how a
> map works (because you read that part of the docs) and now only need
> to know the options specific for mysql.
I can understand this now, as I said above a simple line stating this fact
would relieve quite a bit of confusion.
But as I also said, maybe I missed it. I have been through a jumble of
texts trying to figure out where to start and trying to grasp the basic
layout of the MySQL tables.
All in all, I think this will be a great solution, and I would love to see
some more specific documentation! I would love even more to get it working
and write my own howto!
I appreciate you taking the time to reply so thoroughly and allow us all
to get a better grasp on things.
Thanks,
Bryan
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